Law Story 4– Judge Michael Carroll

“You are only remembered if you are exceptional or terribly bad.”

Follow along as we take a dive into Michaels journey into law.

An absolute honour to interview Judge Michael Carroll, a retired Barrister and Judge in both Woolwich and Maidstone County Courts and the man that put Charlie Kray away !

For listeners interested in pursuing the Bar and have aspirations of becoming a judge and learning what this entails, this story is definitely for you. This will provide readers with an insight into the bar, pupillage as well as life as a Barrister and Judge.

Listen to the full story:

Thank you for joining me Michael, if you could just introduce yourself and let us know what it was you did ? 

My name is Michael Carroll, I spent 20 years in practise at the bar, the vast majority of which was criminal, and then I spent the next 20 years as a Circuit Judge, sitting in the Crown Court, usually with the jury doing criminal cases exclusively. 

There was then a period where you start off as a part-time judge, so I was still in full time practise but became a part time Judge known as nowadays as a recorder and then after five years, I applied to be a full time judge and then spent 20 years full time. And then on my retirement, I then went back to doing part time work for a few years and then decided enough was enough. 

What initially inspired you to pursue a career in law? 

Well, as I've said on many occasions, I fell into it really. I grew up wanting to be a pilot because my father had been air crew in the RAF for all my life. I realised having gone for air crew selection, I wasn't up to it, I didn't have the aptitude and then I looked around to go to university. I didn't get good enough grades to go to university first time round and on looking at the following year when I was in the third year of sixth form, I decided I I didn't want to do an arts degree which is what I had applied for at University and decided to do law.  I had no idea of what a career in law was. I had no contact but having started the degree that I embarked on when I left school however, I did meet a very inspiring Austrian Jew who was a barrister whom had come over in the 30s and made a career as an academic. I found him very inspiring and I decided perhaps I should be a Barrister. 

Could you just elaborate a little bit more on who this gentleman was when you say academic, what was it exactly that influenced you in your decisions? 

His name was Clive Schmittoff, his thesis for his PhD in the 30s, he wrote a thesis on international trade law, which is still in print and is the Bible for all practitioners in that area of the law. International private law, which is individuals rather than trade and other books on the sale of goods. But he was a very inspiring chap. He knew quite a few High Court judges because they were virtually his contemporaries and he was friends with Lord Denning. Denning was the president of our law club at the College in Moorgate and came to speak to us once a year and I had the privilege of meeting him, although very briefly. We were all in awe of him because he was ‘The Judge’ of the 60s and 70s and into the early 80s. I wouldn't say Denning inspired me as much as Schmittoff, but that was the sort of circles that Schmittoff had moved in for 50 years. 

Having finished University and moving onto the Bar, what was that sort of process like ? 

Well, I wasted a lot of time in this period of my life because I discovered that I could have actually gone straight to Bar from school even with the rather poor A-level results I got in my penultimate year. However, I didn't and I did this mixed law degree and only got part exemption from the first part of the bar exam, so I had to do another two years having left college. Having got my degree in the summer of 71, I started the Bar in in the autumn of 71 which was two years parts of what they called parts A&B and then Part 2, which is Bar Finals. And I did those in the obviously in the second year and managed to pass, most people did. 

How difficult did you find those exams? Was it something that was more daunting than University ? 

I had to repeat, one of the part A which was a contract law, I didn't get as sufficient grade in my degree to get exemption. Those are fairly straightforward, but the finals are more difficult, however. You chose options and I chose three options; international trade, law, international private law, and everyone had to do revenue law. I had done all three for my finals on my degree, in fact I had the same lecturer in revenue for my bar finals that I'd had for my degree, so I did have an advantage. 

The private international law which was called officially conflicts of law, Schmittoff had lectured us on both of those and we were using his book for the finals and people were quite impressed when I used to say, well, actually Clive lectured me on my degree and things like that.  

So the bar finals for me weren't too bad and so I managed, as I say, I managed to pass. I think most people did pass. They were quite strict though, you can only retake about three times or four times, and then you were struck out, as it were. 

Moving on from obviously passing the bar, what was what was your experiences like practising as a barrister and what was that? What was that journey like? 

Well, in those days and it's still roughly the same, you have to do a year's pupillage, it's a bit like articles (now known as a training contract). It is a year with the experienced barrister, not a silk, not a King's council, but a what they call a junior barrister who can be 60-70 years old. Junior just means not in Silk. I did a year with that pupil master, but the first six months you weren't allowed to earn any money. The second six months, if anybody sent you any work or the clerk assigned you a case, then you could earn money. I was lucky as I was in quite a busy set and I had quite a busy second six months. But I then did what they call squatted which meant I stayed in my pupils chambers but was sort of in limbo, not paying rent as a tenant in those chambers, but still earning money and paying 10% to the clerks for their fees. And so I spent 15 months in that set of chambers and then eventually, having scoured the country for a tenancy including Manchester and Liverpool, I found and went to Gray’s Inn.  

Quite a few of us from my pupillage chambers ended up there and so there's quite a gaggle of us who've been in what was my pupillage chambers, which was 2 Paper Buildings. I became a tenant at One Gray’s Inn square in January 1975 and then was a Barrister in full practise paying rent to the chambers and being but being briefed. I was lucky as I had someone I knew at school who sent me quite a bit of work in those early days. 

So what were your sort of main practise areas, what was the areas that you enjoyed the most ? 

Well, I started off particularly with this friend who was in a civil set of solicitors, quite close to what's now the central London County Court. He also did agency work from around the country, so someone had a case they would instruct him as agent to go along and then he would instruct me. So that was predominantly civil. I was doing quite a bit of crime, but very low level crime for the first few years of practise and I averaged only one trial a year in the Grand Court. So that wasn't good.  

But then after six years, I decided I didn't want to do. Civil anymore cause I was getting some horrifically badly prepared civil work where the solicitor really sat on it for years, done nothing and of course I had to sort it out. My initial reaction was well, we should have settled this three years ago. The costs are now in excess of the claim and I got rather fed up, so I stopped doing Civil cases and started doing exclusively crime, except for coroners inquest from time to time and courts martial in Germany. I used to fly over to represent usually drunken servicemen who assaulted somebody in the mess, there's quite a lot of that.  

But after about 1983/1984, I just did crime. Which was very good when it came to being a judge later on, because there were no nasty surprises.  

Obviously moving into judgeship, would you mind just sharing what that sort of transition from barrister to judges like? 

Obviously when you start out as a very young barrister, you don't believe for one minute as you're standing up in court in front of someone you think is about 120 years of age, that you'll ever be that side of the court and it's a gradual process.  

I had a very experienced female Queens Council who said, you know, you ought to think about sitting and several others said the same. So, I sort of said, well, when I'm 40, I'll apply and that's what I did. You wrote a letter for what was in those days called an assistant recorder. I went for an interview in the House of Lords with the Lord Chancellor's private secretary, who asked me some not very searching questions, but they take soundings and you have to tell them who you've appeared in front of so they can speak to them to see whether he can or can't be allowed to be a part time judge. It's interesting when I reeled off a number of names, the chap said to me  ‘we've taken soundings out on Circuit Carol and no one's ever heard of you’. What i heard from someone at the time was that when you're a judge, you have lots of people appearing in front of you and you can't remember them all. You only remember them if they are exceptional or terribly bad.  

As I fell in between those two extremes, I got a series of phone calls from these full-time judges saying ‘Carol, I've been asked to give a reference for you, and I think it's only right that I speak to you in person before I send it’ and of course it became obvious to me because I went to see about three or four and they didn't remember me.  

But, it didn't do any harm because I was accepted and I became an assistant recorder in 1990 and then was in the Crown Court and then I transitioned to being a recorder a few years later. That's what I started off and you only do two weeks a year at first. Eventually I found that actually, by sitting as a recorder, the income because you got you got paid a daily rate, was probably better than what I was earning in practise, which wasn't very well.  

I did this for about four years and then for the first time ever, the Southeastern circuit, which is what London was covered by, they put an advert in the Times newspaper for the first time. Other circuits had advertised for full time judges but this was the first one I did. I was told by someone I had a lot of time for when I was doing my part time sitting  to apply.  

I had nothing to lose and that's how I went through the procedure. I had a career as a barrister and had the mindset that even if I didn't get it this time, I might get it next time. I filled in quite a lengthy form and went for an interview which was with a serving Circuit Judge, the Lord Chancellor's private secretary and the scribe in 1995. Right at the end of 1995, I learned not without some surprise, that I had actually been offered the position. And that was in December 1995 and I started as a full-time judge in March 96. I stopped the bar full time in about the February of 1996 and went to Woolwich Crown Court as a permanent recorder, waiting as we had to do and still have to do, for the Queen to sign the warrant appointing me to become a Circuit Judge.  

I found myself at Woolwich Crown Court, which was a high security and remains a High Security Court and I spent 15 years there and then moved down to Maidstone for the last five years of my 20 year career. 

With criminal legislation constantly changing and new legislation being introduced, how did  stay up to date with new legislation?  

Well in short we were lucky. As a judge, we used to get sent copies of all the relevant new statutes. We also got textbooks supplied and we got law reports. Usually the ones I received were the criminal appeal reports on sentencing and trials.  

It wasn't difficult to remember, and I used to take the view that if they're sending me this material for free, the least I can do is read it and absorb it. By reading and absorbing it you kept updated. In theory, the barristers in front of you are meant to tell you what the law is but I'm afraid that wasn't always the case ! 

Being on both sides of the courtroom,  I can imagine there are different pressures in both positions, how did handle those pressures or any nerves that that you ever faced if you did? 

I was fortunate, I didn't really suffer from nerves as a judge, I always remember thay you never forget your first appearance as a barrister, and I don't think you ever forget your first appearance as the judge.  

And I remember when they start off part time and you make your first appearance as a judge, it was just as the usher was about to knock on the door to tell everyone the judge was coming in and I'm thinking, why have I volunteered for this?   

They're very clever and they started me off with something very small, very small sentence, and from then on I didn't suffer from nerves. So I was lucky.  I did find, however, that being a judge was a lot less stressful than being a barrister. 

If you could go back in time and give yourself sort of one piece of advice when you started out, what would that be and sort of why? 

I think I should have mentioned you know that when I started sitting as a part-time judge, I started doing more than the minimum because I found that was an income stream compared to what I was doing in practise, which wasn't very good. I also should have been more forceful with my clerk because I was not forceful and I if I had been, I think I probably would have ended up with a better practise. Now, had I done that and ended up with a better practise, I might not have got round to applying to be a judge and becoming a judge changed my life financially and socially. 

Could you just talk about, if possible, any cases that you dealt with that you felt were important to yourself in your personal development or just important the grand scale of justice? 

Well, the most high-profile case I tried was Charlie Cray, the brother of the notorious Cray twins. Although he was, he did have previous history in the criminal system up for offering to supply cocaine. I was given that case only a year after I was appointed. So that was quite a feather in my cap.  

It's quite difficult sentencing someone who's not that much younger than one's own father. He was quite a pathetic creature. He actually died in prison during the sentence that I imposed so and he was the last Cray of the three to be sent to prison. The other two had been had gone to prison for murder. It was a very interesting case and I was upheld by the Court of Appeal and a very, very high profile Silk called Jonathan Goldberg dismissed all the objections to how I had handled the case. There were quite a few little complications, but even posh spice got a mention here. 

When you obviously make a decision which is then reversed by the Court of Appeal what are those feelings like ?  

Well, usually annoyed because you still don't accept that the Court of Appeal have got it right. And my the first resident judge who's the senior judge at the Crown Court where you're sitting, used to refer to the Court of Appeal as the the planning court. They're all civil practitioners, usually planners or something.  

It's slightly annoying when it happens but thankfully it only happened twice on conviction. I think it was. Obviously more times on appeal on sentence because you're dealing with many more sentences than you are trials, but I think I only had two convictions quashed in 25 years, so I must have been doing something right. 

Would you make any changes to your Law Story ?  

No, I'm more than satisfied. I mentioned that I wasted of a few years not going straight to the bar from a-levels because you could in those days and I was in chambers with about three people who didn't have degrees. I used to think I've wasted that time, staying on an extra year in the sixth form, but having been appointed as a judge at 47 and having done the 20 years I was able to retire at 67. Which is far below the average retirement age for a judge, even under the new rules. And so I I like to think I'm caught up with those lost years, and so I didn't lose out in the end. It would have been nicer to have started at the bar three or four years earlier, but there we are. I didn't. But I don't think I suffered.